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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 6, 2012 10:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Right, it's just like Mitt says:

"If someone has a heart attack, they don't sit in their apartment and die,” Romney told "60 Minutes" in a September interview. “We pick them up in an ambulance, and take them to the hospital, and give them care. And different states have different ways of providing for that care."

That sounds so much more cost-effective! You might not think that it's not the govt's job to get involved in health care, but we all foot the bill for Romney's "Let Them Take an Ambulance to the Emergency Room" plan. Great idea. Thanks.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 6, 2012 11:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

At least it's a 10th Amendment issue.

As it should be.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 6, 2012 11:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

It has nothing to do with what "I think" the federal government's job is. It has to do with what the constitution says the federal government's job is. (or isn't in this case ).

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 6, 2012 11:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I'm curious though.. What would the two of you do about the health care crisis we have in this country? Or do you not agree that there is a crisis? Mitt doesn't think there is a problem. He thinks we should maintain the present system where the uninsured should just get picked up in ambulances and go to the emergency room. You guys like to talk about the Constitution. So what does the Constitution recommend we do to control health care costs?

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 6, 2012 11:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

In short, the constitutional solution would be thst if you want the care, find a way to pay for it yourself. I know, I know.... that darn constitution getting in the way of people and their free stuff.
The best thing that could happen would be for people to understand that healthcare is not a right. Unfortunately in this entitlement society in which we live, healthcare is just another item on the list of those things that people feel they are entitled to merely because it exists.

People losing the entitlement mentality would go a long way toward fixing many of the problems that face this country. Not just healthcare.

that's all for now. gotta go I'll be back to play some more tomorrow if you'd like to continue the discussion.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 6, 2012 4:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Pretty harsh. If you can't pay, what, you die, too bad.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 7, 2012 4:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Life often times is harsh.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 7, 2012 6:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Yes, but we can do better, we can try to look after each other. The alternative is pretty primitive.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Nov 7, 2012 10:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Jeezus dude - You promote Social Darwinism like a maniac. I sorta understand this dog eat dog thing you’re doing, but goddam man...WTF is wrong with showing compassion to others?

The "entitlement society" myth is just that, a racist dog whistle talking point for the right and nothing more. The idea that taking benefits away from those in need will fix anything is total nonsense.

I read that you said you are an "independent" and unaffiliated. How convenient - see, that way you can just sit back and snipe without standing for anything - you just stand against. No way man, too easy. Tea party has played that card out.

You are right though, life can be harsh. That's exactly why there is such a thing as public assistance. 6 years ago I was on unemployment. Without it, I would have been done. My plant closed and 300 people were out on their ass without doing anything wrong. Working one day, not working the next. It fucking sucked and people were thankful to receive any type of benefit after the decision was made to close the plant.

Please tell me why you have such a problem helping other people. I am interested because I have never in my life seen anyone promote Social Darwinism like you do. Im surely not the only one who sees this in your posts.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 7, 2012 10:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

sko - I don't know the specifics of your situation but I wholeheartedly agree that as designed, the social safety nets that are so very needed in cases like your worked as intended.

Would you deny that there is a not insignificant percentage of able bodied members of society that have twisted the social safety net and turned it into a hammock?

And I'm not talking about the frictional inefficiencies that exist in any program - I'm talking straight up abuse.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Nov 7, 2012 10:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Hell yes Mando, and that is the other side of the coin imo. I think its one of those situations where you have to side with the greater good, or the better of two bad options.

To me it’s not a real choice, because with both you have very negative consequences. Meaning either cutting benefits altogether or trying to control the massive fraud that accompanies them. It makes me as sick as anyone else to know how many people are experts at fucking the system. Prosecute and send their asses to jail - because they are criminals.

In my opinion, when it comes to a civilized society, these programs have to be in place. Period. Its not that they are so efficent and effective, but they do however measure us as a people and a country. You can tell quite a bit about a nation by how they treat their own. I have to believe that we are better as a people, a nation even with these types of programs in place. Being an American makes you part of something, whether you like it or not.

The truth is I have a 3 year old so this subject really strikes a chord with me. People ask my wife and me all kinds of questions about raising him and value(s). I tell people the most important thing I want to impart to him as a father is compassion. It’s OK to care and be connected to other people you do not know. Helping someone who needs it is a good thing because you never know when you might need that very same help.

I refuse to believe that society would be better off without public assistance. That is the epitome of Pandora’s Box if you ask me.

To answer your question directly Mando - No way I deny that fraud is totally out of control when it comes to public assistance. I dont think it can be avoided.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 7, 2012 11:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Which leads me to the point I have been trying to make for the last 4 years - not with you guys here - but in general with what I see as the most significant issue facing this country.

It isn't ring's uterus, it isn't Monte's MMJ, it isn't abortion, it isn't health care, it isn't same sex marriage, it isn't Iran's nuclear program, it isn't global warming/cooling/climate change and it sure as shit isn't anything that was addressed by either party during the campaign, nor will it be anything addressed by the Administration in the next four years.

We havd a fiscal crisis bearing down on us like nothing ever seen before. We are about to hit a fiscal ceiling for the third time in the past year. Our debt is unserviceable, our spending is out of control and our revenue system generates a pittance for the government while allowing for wealth concentration.

If we do not address our spending immediately, address our revenue generation equitably then at some point - I think within the next 10-15 years - our debt is going to collapse the economy. The dollar is going to zero as all fiat currencies have done. We will at the very least lose world reserve currency status.

When that happens ALL of these social safety net programs cease to exist. Immediately. Entirely. Everything "funded" by the federal government breaks. Including the government. With luck, we will suffer through a huge contraction and find a level of semi-sustainable equilibrium at a very local level and neighbor for the most part, will look after their neighbor. It's more likely that the transition will not be such a smooth ride. Will it be Mad Max or Cormac McCarthy's 'Road' or something in between?

Compassion is fine during relatively good times. How quickly do you think compassion will fly out the window when the choice is to feed your 3 year old or feed your neighbor? How quickly will compassion fly out the window when your neighbor decides that you aren't going to feed your 3 year old and decides to come take your food?

I would like to think that Americans will rally around each other and we'll figure out how to manage. But there is a growing portion of our society that is ENTIRELY dependent on the empty promises the government has made to them. That demographic will be the most desperate and most impacted first. I don't share your enthusiasm that they will have the same degree of compassion you do and most of us agree is necessary and appropriate.

No one is talking about this seriously.......and I'm scared shitless.

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Poster: Daddy D Date: Nov 7, 2012 5:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship." - Alexander Tyler

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffMonte B Cowboy Date: Nov 7, 2012 5:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- just rely on what Jerry said

Jerry had it pegged in 1967 when he said this in the CBS Hippie Temptation documentary: "What we're thinking about is a peaceful planet. We're not thinking of anything else. We're not thinking about any kind of power. We're not thinking about any of those kinds of struggles. We're not thinking about revolution or war or any of that. That's not what we want. Nobody wants to get hurt. Nobody wants to hurt anybody. We would all like to be able to live an uncluttered life, a simple life, a good life and think about moving the whole human race ahead a step."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zHmi9y-KLo

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Nov 7, 2012 5:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

It's ironic that freedom demands disipline and restraint and the lack of those qualities ends freedom.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 7, 2012 11:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

"Would you deny that there is a not insignificant percentage of able bodied members of society that have twisted the social safety net and turned it into a hammock?"

According to Romney, I believe that number was something like 47%, no?

You will find abuse and fraud in practically any program where money is at stake. Are there veterans that abuse veterans' benefits? Of course. Should we just ax that program then?

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 7, 2012 11:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I have compassion for others and I do help others out. I just would like to decide for myself who needs / gets my help and compassion and not let the federal government decide for me. Face it, the federal government's record on deciding who needs assistance isn't very good.

We absolutely live in an entitlement society. Welfare is a way of life for far too many people in this country.
Do i believe that there are people that genuinely need the assistance? absolutely. But the gap has been quickly closing between those that need a helping hand and those that are just looking for a hand out. The fed does a terrible job of weeding out those that abuse the system and that pisses me off.

I do stand for something. i stand for personal liberty and following the constitution. Most of the things discussed in this thread should be done on the state level and not the federal level as is outlined in the 10th amendment to the constitution. EDucation, healthcare, welfare. The fed has no business being involved in any of it.


Nothing wrong with collecting unemployment. You paid into it, you collected when you needed it. Unemployment is administered on a state level and not the federal level, just as it should be.

As I said, i have no problem helping others. I just have a major issue with the Gov taking my money and using it to help those that don't really need the help. And if you don't think that there is alot of that going on, you live in a different country than I do.

And again, my stance isn't about any "social darwinism".
It's about the fact that we have a very well written document that outlines the way this country is supposed to be governed. And the fact that our politicians are ignoring it more and more, and we the people are allowing them to do it, is what is sending this country down the crapper. And even sadder is the fact that most citizens don't even realize it is happening. Give up a little liberty for some free shit? sure, no problem. Let us know when you have some more free shit you want to give us. We have some more of our liberties to spare......




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Poster: JackDog Date: Nov 7, 2012 12:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

People like you would get taken seriously if you were as upset about runaway military and intelligence spending as you are about Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. I'll bet that you didn't say a thing while Dubya was running up our debt and having deficits every single year. And you are not an Independent. You may like to tell yourself and other people that, but you're just another republican.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 8, 2012 3:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I would take you more seriously if you would stick to talking about what your beliefs are and not try to tell me what my beliefs are.
You would have no way of knowing that I believe we spend way too much on unnecessary military programs, that we spend way too much time and resources being the policemen of the world, or that I am what most people would consider a wingnut for believing that we should close every military base around the world excluding those on US soil. But, please continue to tell me what my beliefs are anyway.
We are making progress though. At least you didn't insult me this time because you disagree with me.

All that aside, you do understand that military spending is something that the federal government is authorized to do under the constitution, whereas social spending is not. You do realize the difference don't you?

As for me being a republican...that is laughable. I'm too conservative for the republicans to want me or my ilk.
Republicans are no more conservative than democrats anymore.
Their agendas are different, but their means of achieving those agenda's are the same. More spending and bigger government = more power!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 8, 2012 9:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Shit.....I believe we spend way too much on NECESSARY military programs and I've been in the belly of that beast for 33 years.

I also believe we spend too much on every other line item in the discretionary and mandatory portions of the budget. The only difference is the degree at which I would cut each line item. Some would die, some would get pruned.

And I am more conservative than you. When I look left the only person I see is Genghis Khan.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 7, 2012 3:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Ya know, JD, if we took ~ half the bucks going towards equipment that would ONLY really be useful in fighting the "last war" (ie, Cold War), that is TOTALLY unnecessary given the v different "threats" (overstated IMHO) faced by the US today, we could fund EVERYTHING ever considered in the most excessive welfare state...education, health; everything.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Nov 7, 2012 4:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I agree that the those who preach fiscal discipline do not often couple the domestic cuts with the cuts that effectively would end most of the American Empire and the infrastructure that maintains it. As with all of it, if we spend beyond what we are able, the whole enchilada is going to come down ugly and quick. Best sort out what we value and how, and cut loose the rest. However, we don't have such a good track record as a country when facing that question. Things seem to have to become untenable for us to face the reality.

>we could fund EVERYTHING

I do not that is possible in any society, ever- or at least for very long.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 7, 2012 5:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Oh yeah, way overstated there, but you get the idea...we (Arizona in particular) REALLY love our defense spending, and as you and I both are well aware, some of these "big ticket items" just really aren't going to be all that useful in the upcoming conflicts (IMveryHO, as it's a real guess of course...and like FB & MJ point out, there are some v real problems with administrating a welfare state, untoward effects, blah, blah, blah).

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 8, 2012 9:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Interesting tidbit of data driven info for you PM.

Two questions from the following scenario:

If you instantaneously eliminated deficit spending (either as a matter of practice or Constitutional Amendment) AND then you applied 1 (one) QE stimulus package each year (round it to $750 BILLION) solely to retire the debt AND you left Social Security untouched:

1. How long would it take to retire the debt?
2. How much would you need to cut the remaining budget line items to support this approach?

You will find your answer to why it is nearly mathematically impossible to solve our fiscal and economic predicament.

Remember, problems have solutions. Predicaments only have outcomes.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 8, 2012 10:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Got an easy one: will consider that when one & all realize we must make age for SS & medaid PRECISELY proportional to what it was when adopted (ie, inc by 5 yrs due inc in longevity)...good to go!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 8, 2012 10:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Here's the answer because I didn't really expect anyone to do the math.

1. 20 years

Here's the kicker.

2. 80%. EVERY single budget line item (less Social Security) would need to be cut by 80%.

Cue the fat lady with the viking hat.....

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 8, 2012 11:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Ha!

But, to restate the obvious, it is amazing though how ALL aspects of future budget woes do go away, LITERALLY, if you inc the age for SS/medc a few yrs (seriously--this is the EASY math).

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 8, 2012 11:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

All aspects of SS future budget woes go away. Increasing the SS age to 187 doesn't do anything in the long run if we continue to run deficit budgets.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffMonte B Cowboy Date: Nov 7, 2012 1:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Re: "Unemployment is administered on a state level and not the federal level, just as it should be." Wrong, but only partially wrong. Extended unemployment benefits are passed by US Congress and funded at the Fed level.

Re: "I just have a major issue with the Gov taking my money and using it to help those that don't really need the help." I totally agree with you!

Fort Collins City Council just voted 7-to-0 on Oct 16, 2012 to pass a huge Taxpayer Givaway to Avago Technologies here (formerly HP) for $4.5 million! So I emailed them my comments, and I spoke up at their council meeting:
STAFF RECOMMENDATION says:
"Staff recommends adoption of this Resolution."

BOARD / COMMISSION RECOMMENDATION says:
"Negotiations of the planned Avago Technologies expansion and related Business Investment Agreement were conducted confidentially."

PUBLIC OUTREACH says:
"Negotiations of the planned Avago Technologies expansion and related Business Assistance package were conducted confidentially."

I am telling you that Avago makes power amplifier components for Apple's iPad 3 and the iPhone 5. We are talking about production levels on the order of tens of millions of units. As far as I know, these Avago components are being made for Apple in the same Fort Collins facility you are citing in your proposal. None of Apple's devices are made in the USA.

Hock Tan is Avago's CEO and president. On Aug 17 of this year Avago held a public teleconference about its Q3 profits. That's when Hock Tan reported, "Revenue from our industrial and consumer target markets were a little stronger than we expected. And for the last two quarters, we've disclosed that Foxconn was at greater than 10% of this revenue, and that continued again this quarter."

Fort Collins City Council passed a resolution recently proclaiming "Corporations are not People."

Now you should pass a resolution proclaiming "Workers are People." I am asking you to make a $5 million tax investment instead, in the Avago Tax Incentive, if you are planning to vote Yes on it. Use the extra half a million dollars to teach the public about what is actually going on with Foxconn and Avago. You should be doing much more public outreach about this.

Approximately twenty Foxconn workers have committed suicide at work in China due to enormous pressure, long hours, and squalid living conditions where they work. They were leaping to their deaths from Foxconn building rooftops. This has been reported by the mainstream press. Foxconn and Apple addressed this issue by installing anti-suicide safety nets around all their buildings at every Foxconn facility.

Due to unsafe accumulations and buildups, aluminum dust explosions have killed Foxconn workers in China who were making cases for Apple's iPads. The explosion that occurred at Foxconn's Chengu plant on May 20, 2011 killed three workers, and more workers were maimed.

On Sept 24 this year a riot involving 2,000 Foxconn workers broke out at a factory in Taiyuan, Shanxi Province, after security guards beat up workers. It was reported that 5,000 police were sent to this Foxconn factory. 80,000 people work there. The iPhone 5 was being made here. 40 people were injured.

On Oct 5 this year a strike occurred at Foxconn's Zhengzhou factory in China. Why? Apple placed enormous pressure on quality control inspectors to reduce tiny blemishes after they appeared on some iPhone 5 units. These inspectors pressured workers to do impossible work they were not trained to do. Instead, the workers beat up the quality inspectors. The Foxconn managers ignored this. That led to the quality control inspectors going out on strike. iPhone 5 production halted one or more days.

Foxconn pays their workers slave wages. They often 16 hours per day, six days per week. They live in dormitories on-campus, often in dismal conditions. Apple knows their workers are very stressed out. There is extraordinary pressure to produce high volumes of units with zero defects. Workers must do the same tasks over and over for long periods of time, and they are treated like animals.

At the same time this is going on, the City of Fort Collins are directing staff to create and promote software Apps that run on these devices. Slave workers are manufacturing them. They live and work in concentration camps. This is disgusting to me. Now you are asking us to pay another $4.5 million. I am urging you to pass my "Workers are People" resolution. Give Avago $5 million to achieve this goal - if you are going to give them any Tax Incentive. Thank you.
I think if we started solving our using-workers-as-slaves issues, the debt-crisis you and Mando speak of will evaporate.

I believe we should be making most of our own basic necessities (the more, the better) locally wherever and whenever we can, especially food, clothing, and clean renewable energy.

This post was modified by Monte B Cowboy on 2012-11-07 21:33:14

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 7, 2012 2:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

"I think if we started solving our using-workers-as-slaves issues, the debt-crisis you and Mando speak of will evaporate."

Not a chance. On the contrary, if you solve the worker issue, you likely generate more revenue in the form of both corporate taxes and personal income tax for the Feds to spend. Since they deliberately plan a budget that spends 40% more than they take in each year in revenue, the only thing that happens is the debt can continues to get kicked down the road.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Nov 7, 2012 12:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I hear you, but I still disagree. How could you possibly know who really needs help and who does not? You're assuming and generalizing your opinion and presenting it as fact. You can't have it both ways.

We disagree and that’s fine, but when you promote health care for only those who can pay - survival of the fittest - you are promoting Social Darwinism.

Superior (ability to pay) defeats inferior (those who cannot afford it). Your stance is absolutely Darwinist insofar as what you have posted in this thread.

I don't pretend to have the answer. I just choose to believe there are very smart people working on these issues facing us. Conspiracy theories and what not just add to the insane political climate. The country is as polarized as it has ever been in my lifetime, and I’m 43. I think you will see more good come out of this healthcare issue than you might think. The more divisive we are the less we get done. I think that's exactly why we are where we are, as a country, on a fundamental level.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 8, 2012 5:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I hear you, but I still disagree. How could you possibly know who really needs help and who does not? You're assuming and generalizing your opinion and presenting it as fact. You can't have it both ways.


So, what you are saying is that government knows better than me how to best use my money? And, make no mistake. It is my money. and yours. and his, and his, and hers and....
It is not the government's money. But, they certainly act is if it is.
Please tell me that you are not on board with letting government decide the best way to spend our money. Please tell me that you agree with me that we should be free to decide the best use of "our" money. Please tell me that you agree that it is "our" money and not the government's money.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Nov 8, 2012 5:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

No I dont agree. Your argument makes no sense to me. We have elections so we can vote for the people who, among many other things, decide how best to spend tax dollars.

I hate to break it to ya, but once taxes are taken out of your check it aint your money anymore. It absolutely is the government's money. We put it in, and elected them to allocate it.

The people have spoken man, that's all there is to it. On some level I know you understand this. You are just going to have to cope with the fact that you cannot control how tax dollars are spent. It's part of living in a democracy.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 8, 2012 7:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

ok. We will just have to agree to disagree.
If we can't even agree on the basic premise that it is our money that the government is spending and not the government's money, and that as citizens we have a right to expect that the government only spend that money on things that the constitution says they can spend it on, there probably isn't much we are going to agree on politically. So, before this ends up in a cat fight (as political disagreements often do), lets just end here and agree to disagree.

Here is something i think we can both agree on....
A tasty TDIH compliments of Ken and Judy Lee.

http://archive.org/details/gd1970-11-08.aud.lee.pcrp.26975.shnf

Peace

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 8, 2012 10:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

It's our money either way. As it is, hospitals do not turn away the uninsured for urgent care. Who pays for that? All of us.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 8, 2012 10:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Actually it's not money. All money in the money supply has been loaned into existence in the form of sovereign debt.

But you knew I was going to say that and it doesn't have anything to do with your conversation so I'll shut up and withdraw.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Nov 8, 2012 7:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Agreed. No worries man.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Nov 6, 2012 1:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

apparently, i am NOT my brother's keeper...

damn kids thinking they are "entitled" to an education...

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 7, 2012 4:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Why is anyyone entitled to an education?
If you want an education, go out work for it. Why should it be just handed to you?
Why do you want to be dependent on the government to provide you with an education? or healthcare? or anything?
That is what they want. The more things you become dependent upon the government for, the more they control your life.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 7, 2012 10:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Hey FB--well, the short answer is "it's cheaper"...ie, "we" have all gotten together and agreed to let Gubermint do a bunch of things (roads, dams, bridges, police, fire, etc) cause it just works better that way...we hope. Kids are entitled to it in Arizona cause our state constitution sez so (ie, it sez college/uni's have to be virtually free...though they aren't).

We DO have an agreed upon set of "these things should be 'close' to freeish" cause folks over the past few thousand yrs have come to see society as the better for it.

All the infra structure, blah, blah, blah; we might ALL agree that each and EVERY application of items on these lists is messed up via any and all sorts of problems you guys cite, BUT in principle, we are struggling with it because of Ring's point above...which is the other short answer to you and Mando: "scrogge" (ie, deregulation NEVER really works due to selfish self interest; we HAVE to have 'delegated powers' doing much of this stuff or it breaks down).

But, the two of you rightly point out that the system is far from perfect...ah, such is life, eh?

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 7, 2012 10:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Then why did it work reasonably well until 1930?

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Nov 7, 2012 11:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Presume you're referring to the educational system. (Define reasonably well ;) )

Well, I'm not a history/anthropology/sociologist, but here's a stab with rough facts. In 1930, US population was 122 million souls, with roughly 30 million west of the Mississippi - the rest occupying what we now call "the South", Midwest and Northeast. Roughly 70 million living in urban areas (their definition - towns over 2,500) , rural population 50 million. Again, in rough terms, almost half the pop. engaged in agrarian economy and subsistence. Race/ethnicity: white - almost 89%, other 11%. Up to this point there were very few workers' unions, and labor was cheap. The previous two decades saw a tremendous surge in economic productivity, electrification and mass production, but consumers did not have enough income. Huge income disparity. Great Depression. Massive unemployment. Dust Bowl.

Rough seat of the pants evaluation: a more homogenous population, largely uneducated, largely concentrated east of the Mississippi, engaged primarily in heavy labor or farming. Did it work better? or would you blame it all on Roosevelt and the New Deal?

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 7, 2012 12:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

People were certainly made of much sterner stuff and more ably suited to handle the conditions they were in. You drop today's population into 1930's conditions and they would die within a month. As you noted, 50% of the population were farmers or worked in farm/ag related jobs. In 1930 the population was 70% prducer/305 consumer. Today it's 20% producer/80% consumer.

The New Deal brought a lot of good things, but it came with a price that we are now getting called on to pay. For all of the good things that resulted - ND ushered in a new era of unprecedented Big Gov and started us down the road of dependency on Big Gov.

My father in law was a child of the Depression and his stories are mind numbing. Most people today would fail under those conditions - and my fear is those conditions are gatehring steam and bearing down on us again.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 6, 2012 2:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

You wanna an education?!

I'll give you an education...

Really; just show up...pay attn, and...and...

Damn, that's THE problem--no one pays attn any more!

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Nov 6, 2012 12:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Your solution then, is very radical - end Medicare, Medicaid (also end all special coverage for legislative branch employees) - and it's every man for himself. Postulate out from that - end food stamps, EIC, child care credits, welfare, jobless benefits... correct?

Your family must be very wealthy.

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Poster: JackDog Date: Nov 6, 2012 2:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Finster Baby is obviously just a typical republican douchebag so there's no reason to even attempt to reason with people like him.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 7, 2012 4:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Actually, I'm an independent. republican policies are just as bad as democrat policies.
Have anything of substance to add to the conversation or did you just come by to sling insults because you don't agree with me?

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 7, 2012 4:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

right. I have a full time job and 2 part time jobs....just like my father did. Hardly the actions of a rich person.
One doesn't have to be rich to want more personal liberty and less government involvement in their life.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Nov 7, 2012 6:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

OK. I am willing to be enlightened further. I'd like to understand how less gov't involvement would benefit the greater good, and which personal liberties that you regard have been impinged or hampered. How are they controlling you?

As to education - I believe a better-educated populace leads to prosperity for all, in an increasing spiral - better jobs > more purchasing power > more goods sold > to more innovation and investment in technology > to more jobs > more liberty in lifestyle, etc. I don't consider it an entitlement, like manna from heaven - but a goal to be achieved. I worked my way thru college, not a dime from my folks or the gov't. - but that was a different time, when college was more affordable to for all. Providing basic K-12 education makes perfect sense to me; making college more affordable is a goal.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 7, 2012 6:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I'll bite. Deregulate the health care industry to the point where both insurance companies and health care providers can openly compete across state borders. I'd much rather take a chance on a competitive capitalist free market functioning and determining prices than the Federal government attempting to come up with a level playing field across the country. It's a 10th Amendment issue - as are most of them.

The problems I see with this approach is that some health care providers will flock to areas of higher income concentrations chasing a buck - you could easily make the case that many of the "good" doctors will go to wealthy parts of the country over poorer areas. What doc wouldn't want to drive a BMW around Loudon County over a pickup truck around Appalachia? (The shitty ones IMNSHO). The extent of Federal involvement would be to establish standards of care that each State would have compliance oversight of. I could even see limited subsidization or incentivization for doctors and health care organizations who set up in economically depressed areas.

The Achilles Heel for the current model is the Big Pharma, Health Care and Insurance lobby. Breaking that link is the first step in breakig the stranglehold of inefficiency that is a federally "run" health care system.

I'm sure there are some health care professionals in this collection of misfits that could offer some amplifying or more accurate info. I threw this post together in the time it took me to type it and really don't have a lot of background in the health care industry except as the occaional unwilling participant.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Nov 7, 2012 7:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Understood. The healthcare issue is a very big swamp, on operational and dollar terms. I'm certainly no fan of Big Pharma, Big Health and Insurance lobbies or companies. Left to their own devices, these companies would suck us all dry, and cherry pick not only location as you mention, but the best (richest, least sick, highest-margin) patients to squeeze out the most profit and pay their CEOs huge sums.

So do you (and others here) feel controlled by gov't., and feel your personal liberty (in this or other matters) has been impinged? Examples?

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Poster: thebeadle Date: Nov 8, 2012 12:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Speaking as a Brit, I just don't get your healthcare system, why wouldn't you want healthcare for all? and how can Romney and co have a go at our beloved NHS? We have a lousy government at the moment intent on privatising the NHS and to mis-quote Peter Finch in Network "We're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore." By the way, well done on giving Obama another 4 years, we all feel a lot better

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffMonte B Cowboy Date: Nov 8, 2012 1:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Re: "We're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore."

If the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street movements ever joined up and occupied Main Street -- both here and in Europe, we just might see something change peacefully for the better for all of us. I've tried talking to both groups, but I'm just an average counterculture Joe from Main Street in the United States of Amnesia. The other Joes out there where I come from don't hear me anymore. I have to believe that they are revisiting and rewriting my history. I admire and respect Howard Zinn's version of The People's History.

I'm gonna go out of here on Jerry's and Bear's coat tails. That's what it amounts to for me. I'm proud of that, and it's good enough for me. People like me are trying to die as fast as we can. Taping bands, being soundman, doing tech support and building tape decks for Ampex -- that's what I know, that's what I did, and that's where I come from. If some people here get that, they've probably heard my tapes that I recorded. I can't change who I am and where I come from, but I can change my thinking and my behavior.

I have done a lot of hiking, camping and backpacking. If you're having too many adventures on recreational backpacking trips, then things probably aren't going according to plans, and that's why you're having some problems.

Maybe all we have here is a global supply and demand problem. With seven billion people on the planet right now, I'm just sayin' maybe it's time to bring them into the fold when it comes to America's debt and her Empire behind it. People in my Disneyland-town seem to know three things, and that's all they care about: them, themselves, and their i-Phones.